How to Reward/Punish Good/Bad Behaviour?
#1
For when you are looking for a LTR with a girl.

Rewarding seems easier for me. She does something good, I let her her know I appreciate it in an appropriate way without going over the top. 

But anytime I initiate doing something nice, she will appreciate it but then often reduces how often she initiates. 
If I never initiate, she gets upset and calls me out (rightly so I guess).

If she does something that I'm not happy with that isn't a big deal but I would still prefer her not to do then I feel out of options.
- Calling it out is tricky because it feels like I'm making a fuss out of nothing
- Acting aloof/Ready to leave - This works but for me is extreme, I rather not have to do this for every little thing



I feel like getting good at this is a must for LTRs. Anytime something annoys me about a girl that I'm into for a LTR, I identify times where I basically missed my chance to either reward the good behaviour or to put a boundary on a bad one. There are obv some stuff that you can't change about a girl, but more often then not I find that girls are willing to follow your lead as long as you actually lead well.

Any advice on these things?
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#2
I'm probably not a good person to answer, since I'm very pessimistic on LTRs and also have terrible game. So of course, I'll answer.

In a relationship, you have exactly one point of leverage, and that is your willingness to leave. So giving previews of that, via removal of attention, should be your best bet.

That's the problem with marriage. When you have a house/kids/finances with her, she knows your barriers to leaving are high. That does not beget good behavior.
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#3
(11-20-2020, 04:25 PM)WombRaider Wrote: I'm probably not a good person to answer, since I'm very pessimistic on LTRs and also have terrible game. So of course, I'll answer.

In a relationship, you have exactly one point of leverage, and that is your willingness to leave. So giving previews of that, via removal of attention, should be your best bet.

That's the problem with marriage. When you have a house/kids/finances with her, she knows your barriers to leaving are high. That does not beget good behavior.

One way to get a little leverage is to never let her know how much money you really have, and not letting her know where you keep it all. And be self-employed etc. If you are a 9-5 wage slave and she knows your sole source of income, and it is all in your ssn, you're screwed. She'll just take the house and you will live in your car while paying the mortgage. If you rent and car is leased etc, if you leave and stop paying, go rent a new place somewhere she doesn't know about and can't serve you (or takes a long time to serve you) everything collapses and she knows it.

There really is no way to punish if you intend to stay with her, she will just cut you off and go fuck your best friend in front of you and laugh at you.

Unless you have your assets out of her reach, nothing you can do. If she can't get your assets and is afraid of being homeless, she will behave better (fuck your friend in secret for example)
I be nutting in these bitches!
https://youtu.be/ixCrLAgk4YI
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#4
I'd go with Patrice O'neals way of using logic to explain it to her.

If she does something good, your continuing to be the same man that she fell in love with is usually reward enough.

If she does something bad, sit her down and explain why it was bad and logic through her emotions until she gets it and then explain what she should have done instead.
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#5
[Image: G5BcNSb.jpg]
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#6
I know I may be a broken record on this, but Rian Stone's YouTube channel is great for topics like this: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ayoBG...iOVX9y2_IQ

You might also want to ask your question on Married Red Pill (even though you may not be married), where Rian at least used to be a mod: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/

Based on my experience and reading of the above, I'd suggest the answer to when your girl does something you don't like is to:
1) Make sure it's something worth not liking (ie, do you really care how many pillows are on the bed?),
2) Make sure you're not out of line (slipping on your physique, finances, Game, etc.),
3) If it really is her and not you, temporarily retracting your attention (but in the least butthurt way possible), and
4) Always recognize it could end at any time for any reason, and improve yourself accordingly.
If you haven't met anyone, I'll assume you're lying (h/t to Teedub from the old forum)
My response to the old "why you losers trash the West?"
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#7
I think going into an LTR with the mindset that you're the provider of rewards and punishments is very unhealthy and could turn you into a manipulative person.

That said, I'm a huge fan of complimenting behaviours and other things that I like, but with people generally and not just in relationships. Telling someone you're proud of something they did, or that you liked a certain thing they did/said can be a really awesome thing when you're doing it genuinely. People never forget compliments that come from a place of total honesty. This can be awesome in an LTR if you're doing it to express your happiness and not to try win points with her.

Punishing bad behaviour is where things get dicey. Acting aloof because she did something you don't like is childish and not the way a masculine man should behave. If it's serious then bring it up directly. If it's inconsequential, move on.
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#8
(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: I think going into an LTR with the mindset that you're the provider of rewards and punishments is very unhealthy and could turn you into a manipulative person.

That said, I'm a huge fan of complimenting behaviours and other things that I like, but with people generally and not just in relationships. Telling someone you're proud of something they did, or that you liked a certain thing they did/said can be a really awesome thing when you're doing it genuinely. People never forget compliments that come from a place of total honesty. This can be awesome in an LTR if you're doing it to express your happiness and not to try win points with her.

Punishing bad behaviour is where things get dicey. Acting aloof because she did something you don't like is childish and not the way a masculine man should behave. If it's serious then bring it up directly. If it's inconsequential, move on.

Bolded: I think you should absolutely have this in your toolbox to use when needed.  All the way from How to Win Friends and Influence People level of manipulation to There Will Be Blood level of manipulation.
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#9
(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: Punishing bad behaviour is where things get dicey. Acting aloof because she did something you don't like is childish and not the way a masculine man should behave. If it's serious then bring it up directly. If it's inconsequential, move on.
If you don’t like something she did, then it is consequential and it will likely happen again if you don’t address it.  Guys should establish behavioral boundaries early with women and be prepared to walk away when those boundaries are ignored.
Have you ever noticed it is your haters who obsessively read your every post, comment on them with the most emotion, and expend so much energy desperately trying to engage you?  It's because haters are your greatest, most loyal, and dedicated fans; they just have not come to terms with it yet.  Enjoy them because they are the surest sign that you're slaying it in life!  Big Grin
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#10
(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: I think going into an LTR with the mindset that you're the provider of rewards and punishments is very unhealthy and could turn you into a manipulative person.

The problem is women certainly are manipulative as their default state. So the only way to handle it is to learn to harness their nature. Women certainly have no qualms about manipulating you, so you're just handicapping yourself.
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#11
(11-20-2020, 07:55 PM)Mister Happy Wrote:
(11-20-2020, 04:25 PM)WombRaider Wrote: I'm probably not a good person to answer, since I'm very pessimistic on LTRs and also have terrible game. So of course, I'll answer.

In a relationship, you have exactly one point of leverage, and that is your willingness to leave. So giving previews of that, via removal of attention, should be your best bet.

That's the problem with marriage. When you have a house/kids/finances with her, she knows your barriers to leaving are high. That does not beget good behavior.

One way to get a little leverage is to never let her know how much money you really have, and not letting her know where you keep it all. And be self-employed etc. If you are a 9-5 wage slave and she knows your sole source of income, and it is all in your ssn, you're screwed. She'll just take the house and you will live in your car while paying the mortgage. If you rent and car is leased etc, if you leave and stop paying, go rent a new place somewhere she doesn't know about and can't serve you (or takes a long time to serve you) everything collapses and she knows it.

There really is no way to punish if you intend to stay with her, she will just cut you off and go fuck your best friend in front of you and laugh at you.

Unless you have your assets out of her reach, nothing you can do. If she can't get your assets and is afraid of being homeless, she will behave better (fuck your friend in secret for example)
This girl isn't very materialistic so assets are small comfort, especially since she already has her own place inherited. Though I'm sure the fact that she still can't figure out how I make my money gets her interested. I don't like talking about money with anyone because I've never seen anything good come out of it so I'm glad that works in my favour.

(11-21-2020, 02:28 AM)Zeroblack Wrote: I'd go with Patrice O'neals way of using logic to explain it to her.

If she does something good, your continuing to be the same man that she fell in love with is usually reward enough.

If she does something bad, sit her down and explain why it was bad and logic through her emotions until she gets it and then explain what she should have done instead.
I've listened to most of his radio series. I like his approach as it is logical, feels honest and direct. Though it's hard to sometimes put emotions into logical statements. 

(11-21-2020, 08:31 AM)AirWaves Wrote: I know I may be a broken record on this, but Rian Stone's YouTube channel is great for topics like this: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4ayoBG...iOVX9y2_IQ

You might also want to ask your question on Married Red Pill (even though you may not be married), where Rian at least used to be a mod: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/

Based on my experience and reading of the above, I'd suggest the answer to when your girl does something you don't like is to:
1) Make sure it's something worth not liking (ie, do you really care how many pillows are on the bed?),
2) Make sure you're not out of line (slipping on your physique, finances, Game, etc.),
3) If it really is her and not you, temporarily retracting your attention (but in the least butthurt way possible), and
4) Always recognize it could end at any time for any reason, and improve yourself accordingly.
Will give the video a watch, thanks.

The points you mentioned are more or less it with me. I find it hard to set my own boundaries as I don't know what truly bothers me. For example, one of my good female friends thinks I'm strict on girls being on time. Truth is I don't care if people are late. Especially if they let me know. But when it comes to a girl I want a LTR with, I put higher standards on her. It's not the being late that actually annoys me, it's that I feel that if she doesn't care to be on time then she actually doesn't like/respect me enough. So is this triggering an insecurity within me or am I sticking within my boundaries? This is the question I often ask myself in many other situations as well.

It's often small things like that, that confuse me on how to act. If it was something big, then I can easily manage it by being direct.

(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: I think going into an LTR with the mindset that you're the provider of rewards and punishments is very unhealthy and could turn you into a manipulative person.

That said, I'm a huge fan of complimenting behaviours and other things that I like, but with people generally and not just in relationships. Telling someone you're proud of something they did, or that you liked a certain thing they did/said can be a really awesome thing when you're doing it genuinely. People never forget compliments that come from a place of total honesty. This can be awesome in an LTR if you're doing it to express your happiness and not to try win points with her.

Punishing bad behaviour is where things get dicey. Acting aloof because she did something you don't like is childish and not the way a masculine man should behave. If it's serious then bring it up directly. If it's inconsequential, move on.

I agree with your first statement. I think it shouldn't be a conscious process. I notice that when I'm most genuine, I and the girl can feel it and it feels good. I think the ideal man I want to be is to have clear boundaries, be honest, open and interesting and if the girl can't keep up, then that's their loss and I can leave with my head held high.  When I'm pre-planning, I do feel manipulative and I don't like it even when it works. But I do think that rewarding/punishing is a social skill that sometimes needs practising. For example, I used to hardly ever show appreciation whenever anyone did something for me. Not because I didn't feel appreciative but because I didn't know how to show it without it seeming lame. I was also sometimes scared it would come out ingenuine. After I started giving out genuine appreciation or compliments when appropriate, I could see how good it makes people feel.

I like what Mark Manson says in his book Models in that bringing people up in a genuine way both makes them feel good and makes you feel better yourself. I've tried to be this person as much as possible recently and whenever it comes out naturally, I can see girls being intrigued and guys respecting me for it. But it's hard to do as sometimes ego has it's last say.
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#12
"I've listened to most of his radio series. I like his approach as it is logical, feels honest and direct. Though it's hard to sometimes put emotions into logical statements."

Like he says, listen to your gut because it'll tell you when something's wrong. Once you feel it then ask yourself "why am I feeling this?"
Most of the time it's because they have an ulterior motive behind their actions or words. Like when he talked about his gf asking him which side of the bed he wanted to sleep on but she already had in mind the side closer to the tv...

You have to get her to understand what she did is wrong and then teach her what to do.

edit: in the above example with the tv she did it because girls doesn't like rejection so she didn't ask him if she could sleep on the side of the tv.
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#13
(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: I think going into an LTR with the mindset that you're the provider of rewards and punishments is very unhealthy and could turn you into a manipulative person.

That said, I'm a huge fan of complimenting behaviours and other things that I like, but with people generally and not just in relationships. Telling someone you're proud of something they did, or that you liked a certain thing they did/said can be a really awesome thing when you're doing it genuinely. People never forget compliments that come from a place of total honesty. This can be awesome in an LTR if you're doing it to express your happiness and not to try win points with her.

Punishing bad behaviour is where things get dicey. Acting aloof because she did something you don't like is childish and not the way a masculine man should behave. If it's serious then bring it up directly. If it's inconsequential, move on.

"Gaming" women is one of the most self defeating pursuits ever. 

Treating women like a computer game to beat is a fast track to depression and bitterness. I would know because I've been there. 

I learned how to just treat women like normal people. If she does something that makes me happy or proud of her, I'll tell her that. If she does some fuck shit, I call her out on it. Same as I would with a dude honestly. 

A lot of these answers are just passive aggressive behavior, which is super toxic. 

Game is a misnomer. Really it's the pursuit of becoming a man who's base personality adds value to everyone around him. A side effect of this is being successful with women.
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#14
(11-28-2020, 02:00 AM)Johnstop Wrote: "Gaming" women is one of the most self defeating pursuits ever. 

Treating women like a computer game to beat is a fast track to depression and bitterness. I would know because I've been there. 

I learned how to just treat women like normal people. If she does something that makes me happy or proud of her, I'll tell her that. If she does some fuck shit, I call her out on it. Same as I would with a dude honestly. 

A lot of these answers are just passive aggressive behavior, which is super toxic. 

Game is a misnomer. Really it's the pursuit of becoming a man who's base personality adds value to everyone around him. A side effect of this is being successful with women.

1A) The approach & initiating involves some sort of game
1B) As time goes by, being a solid approacher should happen subconsciously

2A) Whatever conversation occurs between you and the gal should involve receptivity to what the girl says on top of being the best version of yourself
2B) Side note: the best version of your self "outside of the game parameters" should always be progressing because it gives you more things to talk about & topics you can relate to. If you're not progressing, you're regressing
2C) Keep in mind the gal needs to "show you something" as well; a quick follow up and showing the willingness to walk away if there is no chemistry displays how much you value yourself and your own time

3) "Game" is needed usually to seal the deal; from my experiences, this is required not to say the wrong shit before hitting up the finish line and making the right decision to score lol.

During a mini or serious relationship, actually thinking about "game" and manipulation is usually not healthy. Resorting to pro-active measures means one of two things:
A) she's not worth spending extra time with
or
B) stop being so insecure

Totally agree with your post btw
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#15
When I made my original post I was thinking more about the 'acting aloof so she'll think i'm leaving her' type of thing the OP was suggesting.

Addressing things you aren't happy about, and clearly articulating what you won't accept, these of course are fine and very healthy.

Being passive-aggressive is childish and will turn you into a huge cunt.

(11-21-2020, 06:43 PM)Contrarian Expatriate Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: Punishing bad behaviour is where things get dicey. Acting aloof because she did something you don't like is childish and not the way a masculine man should behave. If it's serious then bring it up directly. If it's inconsequential, move on.
If you don’t like something she did, then it is consequential and it will likely happen again if you don’t address it.  Guys should establish behavioral boundaries early with women and be prepared to walk away when those boundaries are ignored.

Establishing boundaries is a good thing - trying to punish her for upsetting you isn't.

(11-21-2020, 08:20 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:
(11-21-2020, 09:38 AM)Wintermute Wrote: I think going into an LTR with the mindset that you're the provider of rewards and punishments is very unhealthy and could turn you into a manipulative person.

The problem is women certainly are manipulative as their default state. So the only way to handle it is to learn to harness their nature. Women certainly have no qualms about manipulating you, so you're just handicapping yourself.

Like the above post I think we're getting our wires crossed. Women get manipulative when they feel insecure. If you've done a good job of setting boundaries you won't need to worry about this.
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#16
(11-28-2020, 08:12 AM)Wintermute Wrote: Establishing boundaries is a good thing - trying to punish her for upsetting you isn't.

The thing is, women smell blood in the water about as efficiently as a crooked auto mechanic. If she ever realizes that she can push you around and that you're just going to sulk, you may as well quit now. Likewise if you get mad. If she knows she can make you mad, she's in charge.

There's a self-respecting, frame-maintaining way to do this that simply puts a line down that you won't have bullshit and that bullshit is counter-productive for her. Usually, when a woman drifts over the line, I'll try to warn her once and then just scoff and walk away or send her home. It's immediate, and it's without argument. Even if she begs and apologizes, just shake your head and go "nah, I'm not doing this with you" as the door shuts. Give her some time to soak up some reality.

Then go do something you actually enjoy, or just go to sleep. It doesn't matter. Ignore the hysterical, demanding "WE NEED TO TALK" texts that will erupt in about two hours, until they reach the calm, worried frownie face stage directly asking for your attention. That's when she's ready. Don't apologize, don't give her what she wanted before she melted down, don't acknowledge any of the crazy shit she said before she ratcheted down into a state you were willing to accept. That is the time to logically explain what she did wrong, when she's ready to hear it. Then dial up the workload a little to test her sincerity. Maybe suggest she cook something specific.

Then give her an AVN Award-winning silverback-style grudge fuck that leaves no doubt that she has responsibilities in the relationship, too, and that it's not just you being a shit sponge for her emotions in exchange for her mere presence. Compliment on how well she handled her gag reflex. At that point, after the repairs on the dynamic between the two of you are complete, you can reward her with something, but absolutely not the thing she was upset about in the first place. She's blown that for now, don't even acknowledge it for a while.

It isn't about doling out a punishment. Don't try to make things worse for her, just cut her off from making things worse for you until she realizes she didn't want this. It's about protecting your boundary when she deliberately tries to cross it - and it is deliberate - and making sure there's no doubt that you've re-asserted it. If she wants to resume, it's on terms that are acceptable to you. Every time I haven't followed this formula or something close to it, I've regretted it.
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#17
The only real way to control women is to saddle them with children, to destroy their bodies and keep them from spreading those butterfly wings, and then control the purse strings, so that they must come hat and hand to buy anything. This combination creates women of the sweetest disposition. If possible find one who has not been to college, because a mind is a terrible thing.
I be nutting in these bitches!
https://youtu.be/ixCrLAgk4YI
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#18
(11-28-2020, 03:14 PM)Jetset Wrote:
(11-28-2020, 08:12 AM)Wintermute Wrote: Establishing boundaries is a good thing - trying to punish her for upsetting you isn't.

The thing is, women smell blood in the water about as efficiently as a crooked auto mechanic. If she ever realizes that she can push you around and that you're just going to sulk, you may as well quit now. Likewise if you get mad. If she knows she can make you mad, she's in charge.

There's a self-respecting, frame-maintaining way to do this that simply puts a line down that you won't have bullshit and that bullshit is counter-productive for her. Usually, when a woman drifts over the line, I'll try to warn her once and then just scoff and walk away or send her home. It's immediate, and it's without argument. Even if she begs and apologizes, just shake your head and go "nah, I'm not doing this with you" as the door shuts. Give her some time to soak up some reality.

Then go do something you actually enjoy, or just go to sleep. It doesn't matter. Ignore the hysterical, demanding "WE NEED TO TALK" texts that will erupt in about two hours, until they reach the calm, worried frownie face stage directly asking for your attention. That's when she's ready. Don't apologize, don't give her what she wanted before she melted down, don't acknowledge any of the crazy shit she said before she ratcheted down into a state you were willing to accept. That is the time to logically explain what she did wrong, when she's ready to hear it. Then dial up the workload a little to test her sincerity. Maybe suggest she cook something specific.

Then give her an AVN Award-winning silverback-style grudge fuck that leaves no doubt that she has responsibilities in the relationship, too, and that it's not just you being a shit sponge for her emotions in exchange for her mere presence. Compliment on how well she handled her gag reflex. At that point, after the repairs on the dynamic between the two of you are complete, you can reward her with something, but absolutely not the thing she was upset about in the first place. She's blown that for now, don't even acknowledge it for a while.

It isn't about doling out a punishment. Don't try to make things worse for her, just cut her off from making things worse for you until she realizes she didn't want this. It's about protecting your boundary when she deliberately tries to cross it - and it is deliberate - and making sure there's no doubt that you've re-asserted it. If she wants to resume, it's on terms that are acceptable to you. Every time I haven't followed this formula or something close to it, I've regretted it.

The further this goes the more I think I'm on the same page and just misread the conversation.

All of this is true, I agree with and practice all of it in my life. I see it as sticking to my standards though, not as punishment.

I read the OP as wanting to know ways to dole out punishment to get what he wanted, which is something very different.
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#19
I think @jetset is right, but the whole approach sounds exhausting. Like emotional warfare.

There is all this guerilla psychology involved in successfully maintaining a long-term relationship, and for what? Why not go to a country where you can live on easy mode and hook up with dozens per year?
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#20
^ It's an investment. Think of it like training a pet (im a terrible person) - when you set the framework correctly in the beginning, it significantly lowers the work you have to do later. I've found that typically you will have to do this in months 6-12 of a relationship. After a few times, she gets the message and understands the boundaries herself, and if she just softly crosses them its less of a big deal. If she doesn't ever get the picture, then you probably need to reconsider the whole thing.

Banging women on easy mode and hooking up with dozens of chicks per year as a long-term path is not for everybody, as you probably know. For what it's worth, that comes with its own problems.
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