"My exposé of a ‘seduction bootcamp’ - BBC News"
#21
(10-18-2019, 02:46 PM)Suits Wrote: You're really doing someone a disservice by giving them a "boot-camp" that strictly teaches game techniques.

[snip for brevity]

To be clear I completely agree with all of this - I wasn't defending PUA bootcamps in the slightest. I think the vast majority of PUA stuff focused on stupid short term INSTANT SUCCESS via learning of canned lines, peacocking, spam approaching etc. Which might get guys laid every so often, but doesn't address the likely base problems that are why they aren't getting (or keeping) girls. But its a far easier approach to teach and sell, so it was what was focused on.

One of the best aspects of RVF was that it focused heavily on the self-improvement side of game. Dressing well, getting fit, earning money, seeing the world etc. Which is a much, much better investment long term. But its not really teachable, or likely to provide results, in a single weekend. So its a bit harder to sell as a product.
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#22
(10-18-2019, 03:45 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote: This is having ripple effects

RSD (Tyler, Max, Luke, Jeffy, Madison, etc..) has been pivoting and deleting stuff since the CNN thing, but it accelerated in the recent few months and all their stuff seems to be gone now.  Their forum was gone about a year ago, and the RSD local facebook groups have been gone about a year.

Honest Signals
Tom Torero
Street Attraction
Squattin Casanova
Bradicus
Daniel Blake
Austen Summers

James Marshall has pivoted.
Simple Pick Up pivoted
Viking Lifestyle pivoted

Roosh went Christian, Roissy is out the game.


Infield footage is growing scarce.  

WIA
Damn, you aren't kidding. Real shame about Honest Signalz/Austen, they had a great collection of vids. Would watch HS and a few others to get in the zone before going out sometimes. From the comments on his one remaining vid they'll be going back up at some point, unclear if on Youtube or elsewhere. Even if a fraction of his subscribers and those from other channels followed to a new platform it'd go a long way towards breathing life into it and maybe finally giving the world a viable alternative to Youtube.
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#23
"Snip"

On another note, welcome to the forum. I look forward to seeing your insight on many topics, like I did on RVF.
Formerly known as Bluto.
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#24
On the contrary, learning to dress well can be learned in a weekend, you can get a completely new and better wardrobe in a couple hours incl casual to dress. All it takes is a little money to start and there's plenty of resources if you can't find a tailor or friend you trust who's expert in these matters.

The other things cannot be, they take years. Which is why there's no excuse for ever not being well-dressed when going out and talking to women. You should be, worst case, in the top 2-5% of the best-dressed guys she sees all day. I can assure you I'm #1 on that list of hers because I like dressing that way, plus the effect it has on women.

And, pro tip, looking like a rich, well-dressed and powerful man means people treat you better, give you free shit, better tables, most people are way way less apt to fuck with you and your stuff, girls start qualiflying themselves, etc.

Given the amount of beta schlubs out there hot girls can't stand to see someone dressed up makes them immediately stand out as Alpha. It's really not that hard to develop your own personal style that looks great & women adore.
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#25
(10-22-2019, 11:35 PM)donnygately Wrote: On the contrary, learning to dress well can be learned in a weekend, you can get a completely new and better wardrobe in a couple hours incl casual to dress. All it takes is a little money to start and there's plenty of resources if you can't find a tailor or friend you trust who's expert in these matters.

The other things cannot be, they take years. Which is why there's no excuse for ever not being well-dressed when going out and talking to women. You should be, worst case, in the top 2-5% of the best-dressed guys she sees all day. I can assure you I'm #1 on that list of hers because I like dressing that way, plus the effect it has on women.

And, pro tip, looking like a rich, well-dressed and powerful man means people treat you better, give you free shit, better tables, most people are way way less apt to fuck with you and your stuff, girls start qualiflying themselves, etc.

Given the amount of beta schlubs out there hot girls can't stand to see someone dressed up makes them immediately stand out as Alpha. It's really not that hard to develop your own personal style that looks great & women adore.

Can you give us examples of things you wear?
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#26
(10-18-2019, 02:49 AM)k pop Wrote: As a sidenote, I now live in a place in the United States where young women sneer at you for even saying hello. I have heard them say its "creepy".  Welcome to america

I understand why this is happening.  It's the same reason retail is dying and even if you go into a store you wind up having to bag your own groceries.  TECHNOLOGY.

Women don't like the social "friction" of having to reject unsuitable come-ons.  It's not harassment, but it IS mildly uncomfortable and an inconvenience.  They handled this in the past because there was no alternative.  Now there is.  Dating apps offer a convenience and a sort of safe sandbox for women.  They would rather close themselves off to any and all approach and use those apps instead.
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#27
Yea I think its safe to say western women dont want to be approached anymore. They're at next levels of viciousness and disregard for men.

The old pua mantra of every girl wants to be approached is nonsense. Maybe in the 90s before technology.
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#28
American women are still by far the most friendly of any nationality to approach in a bar in my experience. They're very reliably friendly. I'm always shocked seeing people complain about them, and can only assume that they haven't tried gaming many other nationalities. Sarcastic Aussie/Irish girls, or ice cold Eastern Europeans, as two examples are much much harder going.

Generally though if women of any nationality are regularly shooting you down for opening them, or calling you creepy, its because you're not meeting the minimum attraction level to get your foot in the door. If you're a 7+ male (which almost anyone can be with the right clothes, fitness level and attitude) in looks most women will be at least willing to hear what you have to say, even if they're not particularly interested.

Saying things like "western women dont want to be approached anymore" is just ridiculous/making excuses for failure. Women always like to be approached, in a more competitive environment it just requires doing it well.
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#29
>> If you're a 7+ male (which almost anyone can be with the right clothes, fitness level and attitude) in looks most women will be at least willing to hear what you have to say, even if they're not particularly interested.

No. The underlying problem is: a) many women no longer feel a need for a man in their life, because no pressure from peers or family to be in a relationship, and no desire or pressure to have kids, thus no need for a husband's income, plus single motherhood is viable in many countries now; b) excess males because no wars and immigration of more young men than young women to rich countries (all those h1b indians, for example). Result is a colossal excess, especially in rich countries, of young men versus young women who want sex, hence women can raise their standards sky high and most men are locked out of the market. You (zatara) are evidently in the top x% yourself, so you can't see this by personal experience, and you lack the basic thinking abilities to understand the reasoning outlined above.

Most average guys would be best off accepting their fate, maybe using P4P or fatties or old grannies or sheboons to get a taste of sex, then just going without most of the time. Celibacy mixed with occasional P4P is how men in the Navy and Marines always managed, including many very good looking men in the top 1% of physical fitness. The most important form of self improvement, in other words, is for men to look for something besides female validation to give their life meaning.

As for daygame, I was often "hit on" by homosexuals while living in San Francisco long ago, and it was never welcome. I've had fat women with bad body odor and old women who can't even walk.properly much less dance salsa invite me to dance in situations where I couldn't easily refuse, and their attention was most unwelcome. This is how it feels for women to be hit on by average guys. Daygame is just a bad idea.

If women were open to average men, they would respond to those men on Tinder and other dating apps. If a guy gets moderate success on dating apps, then he can branch out to nightclubs, partner dancing , similar social activities. If fabulously successful, then maube even try daygsme, though wait for the IOI. But no success on dating apps means he's hopelessly undesirable, and truth is that describes a lot of men nowadays, maybe the majority. Such guys should just accept their situation and move on with their life and forget trying to get free sex with young hotties in rich countries.
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#30
Thats completely ridiculous. When I was a teenager I got absolutely no female attention for years on end. I was 63KG/140lbs at 6ft0, dressed badly, and had a bad haircut. I was probably a male '3'. I know all about what its like to be ignored or rejected by women, and to go years without sex. If I had followed the advice of someone like yourself I would have given up on life, blamed society, and banged hookers for the rest of my life. It would have been a complete waste of a life.

Instead, I started playing rugby and working out religiously. I put on 60lbs of muscle over 6 years of seriously training. And in the meantime asked my friends girlfriends how I should dress, and followed their advice. And started getting expensive haircuts. And learnt about game, and put it into practice by actually going out there and approaching women regularly. And got a well paid job after uni.

So now, yes, I'm absolutely in the top 10% of men in most environments I find myself in. But thats not because I'm naturally handsome, or gifted in any way. Its because I'm jacked, well dressed, have disposable income, and have game. But literally any man can do exactly what I did. All it requires is hard work.

There are only two factors stopping any man who doesn't have a physical disability from becoming "good enough" looking - cowardice or laziness. There are literally thousands of single women going out, tonight, in whatever city anyone reading this is is currently in to bars. All you have to do to get laid is engage in some self improvement, then actually go out there and approach them.

Sitting at home jerking off blaming "feminism" or "society" for your inability to get laid is just sad.
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#31
zatara, this topic has been beaten to death on RVF, before Roosh hid the game section. Consensus has long been that a small number of guys are killing it in Tinder and other dating sites and most guys are getting nothing. As for those thousands of single women going out, most will come home alone, despite being approached multiple times.

A very small number of guys can push themselves up the ladder dispace some current Chad. But obviously (obvious to those of us who can understand basic arithmetic) only 10% of guys can be in the top 10% at any one time, and the guys currently in the top 10% are unlikely to be such lazy bums that they will allow themselves to be easily pushed aside. Guys who are currently at the 50% level, let's say, are unlikely to push all the way into the top 10% unless they are truly late bloomer types (like you) and most aren't.

Just like most poor people are not going to become rich no matter how hard they try. A very few will, and then those few will beat their chests endlessly like you: "look at me, I did it, so can you, look at me!" The rest just beat their heads against the wall and then beat themselves up for not trying hard enough.

I'm not encouraging guys to be lazy or feel sorry for themselves. I'm encouraging realism. If (and this is a big if) you know you are doomed to lose at a game, then the smart thing is to walk away and find another game where you can win.
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#32
This is a topic I have put much thought into as my career is progressing (work, that is, not game) and I have stopped going out so much, or caring so much (externally) about women, and would somewhat address the nexus between gaming women and high power careers, what have you.

Again, and again, I have heard it said, by men comfortably in middle age and beyond: do not marry. I could repeat their stories, but for sake of brevity will condense it down. One man, boomer, blue collar millionaire who climbed through management ranks of a multi-national despite repeated reluctance and refusals to accede to his superior's desires for him to be promoted. Did everything to provide for kids, and wife, divorce. Not your prissy management type, a blue-blooded blue collar man through grit and sheer competence made his millions. Needless to say, wife took half. His advise: don't marry... Not worth the inevitable trouble.

A late adopter of the internet, he gleefully shows me MGTOW videos these days and laughs, "that's the way to do it." Maybe he has a point...

Meanwhile a close female friend of mine uses Tinder and Bumble to order men much like you would use a hotel room service menu to order food to your lavish hotel room.

Which gets me to one of my most recent experiences going out, ostensibly to drink and maybe meet a girl (don't get out as much as I like these days because of work, and the variable travel that comes with it). Despite being on fertile territory for gaming (city with a huge crowd of women that are attractive), run out of steam by second or third bar-- come to the conclusion that one, it is hard to find a wingman, two, it is hard to pickup women alone, and three, that women have less and less tolerance for cold approach... Despite the ubiquitousness of apps that make it seem like women are living in the moment- the reality hits you that women are coldly calculated in everything they do. To top it off, social intelligence of both genders is going down. Managed to get a number but of course, no response the next day. Despite a great night out, and my relative youth, a growing realization is hitting me that things are just not the same anymore. I would be better served backpacking in southeast asia and meeting girls in hostel than I would be here in the United States making the rounds on thirsty thursday, or trying to claw my way into yet another social circle. I doubt I am the only person feeling this way. My friends don't get many results on apps, much less attractive girls, some get none, and many lie about their conquests because of fear of embarrassment from fellow men and or women.

I'm in the best shape of my life, dressing easily the best I ever had, have a job, that although not life-affirming, nevertheless challenges me and gives me some hope I'm not in a dead end, or untenable situation long term, and yet women are more and more of being just a blip on the radar as I begin stacking cash and pursuing real, discernible self-improvement/ self-development.
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#33
(10-25-2019, 04:50 PM)shemp Wrote: zatara, this topic has been beaten to death on  RVF, before Roosh hid the game section. Consensus has long been that a small number of guys are killing it in Tinder and other dating sites and most guys are getting nothing. As for those thousands of single women going out, most will come home alone, despite being approached multiple times.

A very small number of guys can push themselves up the ladder dispace some current Chad. But obviously (obvious to those of us who can understand basic arithmetic) only 10% of guys can be in the top 10% at any one time, and the guys currently in the top 10% are unlikely to be such lazy bums that they will allow themselves to be easily pushed aside. Guys who are currently at the 50% level, let's say, are unlikely to push all the way into the top 10% unless they are truly late bloomer types (like you) and most aren't.

Just like most poor people are not going to become rich no matter how hard they try. A very few will, and then those few will beat their chests endlessly like you: "look at me, I did it, so can you, look at me!" The rest just beat their heads against the wall and then beat themselves up for not trying hard enough.

I'm not encouraging guys to be lazy or feel sorry for themselves. I'm encouraging realism. If (and this is a big if) you know you are doomed to lose at a game, then the smart thing is to walk away and find another game where you can win.

Literally any man can spend $1000 on a wardrobe of flattering/fashionable clothes, and $30 on a nice haircut. And literally any man can lift weights 3 times a week for 18 months. And again, literally any man can read about game and go out there and talk to women, and learn from their rejections. None of these things are limited to a "small number of guys". But doing all 3 will push any man into the top 20% of almost any room he walks into.

Getting rich is a bad comparison. You don't need to get rich, you just need to become upper-middle class. Which almost all men of moderate intelligence are also capable of if they put in some hard work, anywhere in the West.

I went from the bottom 10% to the top 10% of looks. And am just out of my 20s. I have first hand experience of this, and the dating market in multiple Western countries. Most of the guys on this forum, or that were on RVF before this year, are also guys who started off struggling with women but who are now out there killing it. Its really not that hard if you approach things smartly and put some effort in.

Correct me if I'm wrong shemp, but aren't you a near 60 year old man who exclusively "dates" hookers in the developing world? What exact first hand experience do you have of the current dating market in Western countries that lets you be so sure that theres no way a man can succeed with young women these days? It seems to me that you're reading posts from autists on RVF, using that to justify your own bad lifestyle choices, and so spouting second hand negativity all over this forum.

Its the equivalent of guys who used to post on the RVF travel forum about places they'd never been, but that they'd Googled articles on. Its trash posting. Its both flat out factually wrong, and needlessly defeatist for the overall forum vibe.
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#34
It's true that I have no first hand experience dating as a young man in western countries, but I'm not trying to justify my own lifestyle or spread negativity. Yes, I get my info second hand, but then so does everyone else where other people are concerned. That is, you (zatara) only have first hand experience of yourself, but what you know about other guy's experience is second hand.

Its not just RVF nor was everyone at the old RVF an autist. The idea that guys at the top are killing it in the dating market and everyone below this elite is hurting is pretty much universally accepted, and the explanation is simple: excess of males, reduced need for men as providers, hypergamy, internet allows hypergamy to extend to the whole world rather than just a small social circle like in the past. I wont rehash the argument because it's been done to death elsewhere. No young guy questions this argument because they are experiencing the result, either as elite or as non-elite.

You're argument that anyone can push into the elite is more important, because this is the argument that allows PUA gurus to sucker guys out of money. THE EXISTING ELITE ARE NOT PUSHOVERS. And that true in any area of competition. No it's not impossible to push ahead of other guys, but it gets harder and harder the closer you get to the top. It's important to be realistic about your chances. Most guys who are bottom 10% are never getting past the 50% barrier. Your claim that you were bottom 10% and are now top 10% means you are either very unusual or too stupid to understand what bottom 10% implies. Lots of guys are top 30%, let's say, but could be top 10% if they just fixed some glaring and easy to fix defects. That's sounds more like your situation.

(Another thing is that, like a lot of meatheads, you may have bad taste in women. Big muscles attract skanks with a fetish for muscles like shit attracts flies. Well that's great if your thing is skanks with muscle fetishes. Mine isn't. Once again, you extrapolate your personal experience to everyone else. I'm not knocking big muscles, mind you, but you need to understand there's a whole world of people, both men and women, who don't care about muscles beyond the surfer or middleweight boxer level or whatever. You perhaps have no first hand experience of this world and you definitely lack the imagination to understand it second hand.)

Anyway, it's pointless discussing with you. To anyone else reading this, my message is simple. Be realistic about your situation. If getting into the elite is not realistic for you, and it's not realistic for a lot of guys in those PUA seminars is my impression, then you need to think outside the box. Either lower your standards drastically (guys at the 50% level can get girls in the bottom 20%), or go overseas where your SMV is higher (usually because of you're implicitly rich compared to locals), or use money explicitly, or maybe reconsider whether women are actually worth pursuing (in looking back, my opinion is no, they aren't worth much, and I do have a high notch count, though I wish it was much lower, ideally a notch count of 1 with the sort of perfect woman I never encountered in real life).

Also, as to why I post on threads like this if I'm not actively dating, it's because I want to keep my mind sharp and I might have to dip back into the dating world at some point. Debating with intelligent guys (and there were many such at the old RVF) helps me to become smarter myself. Debating wth blockheads like zatara is just dragging me down. So I'm out of here.
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#35
Most people who post on these topics aren't getting their information secondhand. They're out there experiencing the dating world themselves. Thats why everything you've said on this thread has been useless negativity - you're regurgitating things you've read on the internet, with no first hand experiences of your own.

Its really not that hard to get into the top 10% of men most places in the world. Outside of select very high competition locations like London or Miami, the vast vast majority of men aged 21+ are not killing it in game, looks, career, or all 3. They're poorly dressed, they're out of shape, they're in shitty jobs, or they're bad at approaching women. Or some combination of all of that. But again - you have no direct experience of this, you're basing your negativity on internet threads. If you actually went out to normal venues in Western cities full of young people you'd see what the competition is actually like, and would see its not particularly hard to get into that top 10% with a year or two of self improvement work.

I'm not a "meathead" at all, I've never done steroids and wouldn't consider myself a bodybuilder. I got into the shape of a high level rugby player, because that was the sport I played. Working out 3 times a week not on gear will never make anyone a "meathead", but it will make them strong, healthy and very attractive to the opposite sex. Theres no reason not to do it. You can hamster away about it not getting high quality women if you want, but theres plenty of science out there that shows how attracted to a non-steroid abuse amount of muscles almost all women are. And plenty of anecdotal evidence that anyone whos ever gone from being fat/skinny to being in good shape will be able to tell you about first hand.

Advising any young man to give up on women, and either go MGTOW or only get hookers, is not being realistic. Its just flat out terrible, negative, life destroying advice. Its dangerous, and what leads to guys becoming nutcases like Elliot Rodgers. But I do agree, I'm not sure what value there is to be had in trying to convince a 60 year old who has to pay for sex the errors of his ways. My posts are more aimed at any young guys reading the thread, so that they hopefully don't follow your advice.
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#36
(10-26-2019, 05:31 PM)zatara Wrote: ...

Advising any young man to give up on women, and either go MGTOW or only get hookers, is not being realistic. Its just flat out terrible, negative, life destroying advice. Its dangerous, and what leads to guys becoming nutcases like Elliot Rodgers. But I do agree, I'm not sure what value there is to be had in trying to convince a 60 year old who has to pay for sex the errors of his ways. My posts are more aimed at any young guys reading the thread, so that they hopefully don't follow your advice.

Yeah it's also quite hard to gauge what exactly "50% level" means in terms of SMV. 

Just a quick anecdote, recently I had a situation where there was an issue with a female acquaintance, she talked some shit and then I told her in a very direct way that I won't tolerate that. This happened in a “soft" "beta" environment where guys are generally not very assertive and rather endure bad treatment. Apparently this way of straight talk was something very unusual in that social circle, I could tell a few people were quite shocked about it. A few days later when I was in that environment again, it was extremely noticeable that the other girls were a lot more interested in me than before. 

Nothing about me changed of course, I looked the same, I had the same clothes, but I was perceived differently. That just shows that for a guy the perceived SMV can change quite quickly. So even if someone doesn't look that great genetically there are still ways to improve one's situation.
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#37
(10-26-2019, 05:31 PM)zatara Wrote: Most people who post on these topics aren't getting their information secondhand. They're out there experiencing the dating world themselves. Thats why everything you've said on this thread has been useless negativity - you're regurgitating things you've read on the internet, with no first hand experiences of your own.

Its really not that hard to get into the top 10% of men most places in the world. Outside of select very high competition locations like London or Miami, the vast vast majority of men aged 21+ are not killing it in game, looks, career, or all 3. They're poorly dressed, they're out of shape, they're in shitty jobs, or they're bad at approaching women. Or some combination of all of that. But again - you have no direct experience of this, you're basing your negativity on internet threads. If you actually went out to normal venues in Western cities full of young people you'd see what the competition is actually like, and would see its not particularly hard to get into that top 10% with a year or two of self improvement work.

I'm not a "meathead" at all, I've never done steroids and wouldn't consider myself a bodybuilder. I got into the shape of a high level rugby player, because that was the sport I played. Working out 3 times a week not on gear will never make anyone a "meathead", but it will make them strong, healthy and very attractive to the opposite sex. Theres no reason not to do it. You can hamster away about it not getting high quality women if you want, but theres plenty of science out there that shows how attracted to a non-steroid abuse amount of muscles almost all women are. And plenty of anecdotal evidence that anyone whos ever gone from being fat/skinny to being in good shape will be able to tell you about first hand.

Advising any young man to give up on women, and either go MGTOW or only get hookers, is not being realistic. Its just flat out terrible, negative, life destroying advice. Its dangerous, and what leads to guys becoming nutcases like Elliot Rodgers . But I do agree, I'm not sure what value there is to be had in trying to convince a 60 year old who has to pay for sex the errors of his ways. My posts are more aimed at any young guys reading the thread, so that they hopefully don't follow your advice.

Little known fact: he was in a supervised living community for people with mental illness; I don't know if this fact is scrubbed completely from the internet yet, or not. Not to get into the weeds of the guy's life, but it could be boiled down to: conflicted because mixed race, domineering mother, product of divorce, absentee father, tremendous wealth, obsession with games, textbook narcissism, emotional immaturity and inability to take responsibility for actions, and tremendously feminine beliefs about how interactions with females should unfold.

I was in the office the other day, talking with a younger guy, just starting life, about the future. My two recommendations were, 1) Pursue trade school or low cost education depending on what your interest is, 2) Avoid vidya like the plague; the kid could not understand my second point-- my point being that they're just tremendously destructive to developing males just like cannabis is. It redirects all male competitive drive-- just like porn, into wasted releases. Before you know it, you wake up and you're thirty without girlfriend, career, or any interesting life experiences. Luckily the kid is going to trade school, so he may just come out alright and head of 95 percent of other american zoomers.
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#38
(10-18-2019, 03:45 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote: This is having ripple effects

RSD (Tyler, Max, Luke, Jeffy, Madison, etc..) has been pivoting and deleting stuff since the CNN thing, but it accelerated in the recent few months and all their stuff seems to be gone now.  Their forum was gone about a year ago, and the RSD local facebook groups have been gone about a year.

Honest Signals
Tom Torero
Street Attraction
Squattin Casanova
Bradicus
Daniel Blake
Austen Summers

James Marshall has pivoted.
Simple Pick Up pivoted
Viking Lifestyle pivoted

Roosh went Christian, Roissy is out the game.


Infield footage is growing scarce.  

WIA

So what is the CNN thing?   So all these guys are gone?   So approach is considered sexual harassment now?  The BBC expose is a disgrace.   Very sad excuse for journalism.
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#39
(10-27-2019, 07:35 AM)brianmark Wrote:
(10-18-2019, 03:45 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote: This is having ripple effects

RSD (Tyler, Max, Luke, Jeffy, Madison, etc..) has been pivoting and deleting stuff since the CNN thing, but it accelerated in the recent few months and all their stuff seems to be gone now.  Their forum was gone about a year ago, and the RSD local facebook groups have been gone about a year.

Honest Signals
Tom Torero
Street Attraction
Squattin Casanova
Bradicus
Daniel Blake
Austen Summers

James Marshall has pivoted.
Simple Pick Up pivoted
Viking Lifestyle pivoted

Roosh went Christian, Roissy is out the game.


Infield footage is growing scarce.  

WIA

So what is the CNN thing?   So all these guys are gone?   So approach is considered sexual harassment now?  The BBC expose is a disgrace.   Very sad excuse for journalism.

I believe it was the thing with Julien Blanc a few years ago, with his comments on Japanese women; subsequently he was on Cuomo's show to apologize but as many may or may not know, the apology just amounts to a confession before you get the rope. In Julien's case he got banned from several countries, and appeared to pivot away from a lot of his material.
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