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PUA vs. Natural
For me I have way more natural day and date game. The reason being is that I had a religious upbringing, so going to clubs and bars still feels a bit forbidden. However, dates are a big part of my culture, so it's where I feel the most natural. I also feel like my game is way better when no alcohol is involved.
[-] The following 1 user Likes 20Nation's post:
  • Shaen
(02-09-2017, 01:37 PM)Shaen Wrote: Kaaal I have to agree with you. I have also seen/heard guys try and come up with the "right" thing to say, and at that point I can tell she has lost interest. That is also the same time he lost eye contact and he gets nervous. I've been there. I remember one time awhile back. I saw a guy get completely blown out. When she left I went up to him and bought him a beer and told him you did better then 90% of the other guys here. You had the balls to approach! Canned routines can ruin a man's chance big time. I usually use an opener that I know works. It takes the edge off the approach anxiety. Once I get her to smile or laugh I just go into normal conversation with teasing sprinkled in. On the flip side I would be nothing without pickup. I was so shy and still am on the introvert side of the spectrum.

Good initiative to go and cheer the guy over a drink after that. That's what I call genuine moral support.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Kaaal's post:
  • Shaen
20 I like how you added alcohol in there. I have been rejected so many time because of it. Even when I wasn't belligerent girls can tell when you have had a few to many if you're cold approaching. Very important!
Of course it's better to be a natural and coast through life free from the frustrations of having to learn game, but if you're bad with women pua books can be very helpful. Hell, I was a virgin incel when I bought my first one, 'Bang', which taught me enough basics to finally get with my first girl. In part it was the knowledge that game is something that you can actually learn and improve upon which was deeply motivating, as I'd previously thought there was little I could do to improve things.

On the topic of useful PUA books, I would rate the following highly: 20Nation's books on body language and smv (both neglected topics), Mystery Method, Bang and Day Bang.
The problems with the Mystery Method are: too much unnecessary jargon, approaching large groups as suggested by the book can only really be done by extreme extraverts, and the routines and lines would make you sound like a weirdo if you used them. Why the recommendation then? Not to encourage anyone to actually follow the exact routines or lines, but because it outlines some really core principles which are central to game and discussions of game: IOIs, DHV, frame, congruence, pre-selection, buyers remorse, inner game, kino, LMR, plausible deniability, etc.; as well as the overall structure of game (attract, build comfort, seduce - in that order) and the consequences of getting the sequence wrong (something I had done a lot myself). In short, Mystery had some powerful insights into female psychology which will always be relevant, however his exact routines/strategies were tailored to his persona (i.e. tall, extraverted magician) and the era in which he practised game.
[-] The following 2 users Like Ouroboros's post:
  • baimu, 20Nation
Look at some of the history of those who have gone before. It seems like PUA goes back to the late 1980´s with NLP and Ross Jefferies and then moved to the usenet group in the mid 1990´s then to places like which combined with Cliff´s Lists until Neil Strauss appeared. PUA was probably coined by Mystery later. You can point to people in the 1970’s like Eric Weber or Roger Conway in the late 1960’s or historically with Pimps. Others can chime in with the history. Pimp game is well worth your understanding. The main point would be the examples that others leave from your travels and adventures if you look for them. It probably begins for most in an unconscious sense with your family especially father, grandfather, uncles and older brothers.

Sometimes people need to repeat the errors of others because their heads are so hard; so be it, but there are other options. While travelling in SEA in the early 80´s an opportunity to learn some history opened in P.I.s (Philippine Islands) while chatting with guys that had been there since the late-1940´s and mid-1950´s as well as others who had been there since the late-60´s and mid-70´s. These two groups were very different in a general sense. The men from the 1940´s and 1950´s were much more natural with stronger frames. As the years rolled forward to today, it is obvious how much societal programing was a major influence on all of this as well as advancement in technology as it related to women for the past two centuries. Why two centuries? Read on…

All of the guys from both of these groups in the P.I.´s were experienced military and would be considered manly in most respects. Almost half of the 1960´s and 1970´s group were bordering Simp types as it related to women, in the 1940´s and 1950´s group… none. Saved that experience and it was seen again a few years later. Continued to journey through the Pacific and got another piece of treasure of on some of the islands such as Tahiti talking with old Legionnaires from the 1940´s, then Expat guys in Europe that had been there since the 1950´s and others from the 1960´s and 1970´s. In a similar vein to the P.I.´s more than half of the European transplants were weak compared to a small percentage of the guys from the 1950´s. Fast forward to Africa to visit a few African countries in the southern part of the continent to visit the men who those Legionnaires and expats in Europe had said were their examples. This was all done the old fashioned way where they would write to the these guys ahead of time to set up an introduction as well as providing a ¨letter of introduction¨ to be carried and handed to others. These guys were mostly British and some French, again mostly former military with a lot of experience; many who had been there since the late teens and early 1920´s; great-war types or those from various conflicts from shortly after WWI.

Again this was in the 1980´s and these guys were mostly in their 80´s. The vast majority of these men were naturals. Even in their 80´s they were a force of nature. Was invited to go on the first in a string of safaris and then expeditions (which still continue to this day) with a large group of them and was not even remotely in their league. With the utmost respect, these guys were real bastards, like ice, so cool under pressure with a charging wild animal in the open not like the more controlled environment of 21st century safari´s. They would even check out and advance on the younger local women dealing with our logistics and food that were four to five decades their junior, ZFG. After spending a few weeks with them on a number of occasions, soaking up life in one of the world´s most natural contexts and learning about their histories, the next stop was to other parts of Africa and India to track down some of the examples that this salty group of guys mentioned as being influential to them. This gathering of information happened over time as it was an interest, not a vocation.

The examples who the salty African expats mentioned were late 19th century types who were veterans of places like Afghanistan (Second Anglo-Afghan War, not to be confused with the 21st century escapades) as well as other African and Indian conflicts. None of them were living, but did find some of their relatives in places like India and Great Britain who were mature adults and they themselves had children, many of them adults. These were second hand stories, and this generation of crotchety buggers seemed even more salty and natural in all respects. When asking the adult children about examples that their fathers had, they mentioned the names of certain men and some of the exploits of these guys from a number of conflicts in SEA and Asia during the early and mid-parts of the 19th century (that is right…the 1800´s). The history stopped there as it seemed to come in a circle geographically and finding more authentic details about the men became unrealistic to obtain, but made the historic context of events come to life in a way that is difficult to describe. This was a great way to learn on a number of different levels.

Commonalities across the timelines included rock solid frame, ZFG and ignoring others (male and female) that did not add value to their lives, even in simple communications; guys swooping and living life on their own terms. It seemed that the farther back in history with these groups of men one goes, the more it appeared larger percentages of them were naturals and the strongest had a sense of belonging to something greater than themselves and this was continuously seen in their comradery. That sense of belonging was on a few levels. On one level was a type of ideal concerning the brotherhood of men; on another level it was having shared values or similarly valued experiences; thirdly it was an understanding of where we each fit into a more historic or familial context. It is a sense of history where each understands where they stand in the continuum of time. Lastly, men with high self-efficacy and an internal locus of control significantly outperform others.

Women were pleasurable to them (more disposable as time marched forward), but secondary compared to male friends and their purpose and associated activities. They universally talked about their desire to understand and place their mark in the world as well as share that desire with others, but the women, whom they very early in life thought could fulfill that part in their lives were unable to relate and more specifically share in this, and therefore always fell short. The highest value of women for these men were as mothers to their children, although a large percentage of these guys were still bachelors or widowed so the women did not have that status and were mostly decorative.

So in the spirit of passing things along, considering doing some of this yourselves with both the locals and expats in your current and future travels and you may build a log of sorts that will be more useful than you can imagine for your future or your legacy. It is not something that is done at one time, in one place for hours, rather it is small segments in numerous places over the course of your travels and adventures in life that begin to fit together and form a base. This was all part of long term game and one of the foundations for internal game. You may then begin to apply this mentality naturally to various observations that you have in different parts of the world as the decades roll by; that information will be priceless in your future decision making. Do not simply plant a tree, plant an orchard!

Getting back to the origin of the thread, looking at why PUA and game has evolved is an idea worthy of personal reflection. You will probably see more Game development as technology advances and the number of general products (developed and manufactured by men) come to the market for women increases, like they have in the past 125+ years to make the lives of women easier. Then there is the other side of the coin for men with things like multiple male birth control options with not only the condom, or advances in robotics (think sexbots) or artificial wombs that begin to change the social dynamic for men, the fabric of society, the nature of Game and what it means to be a natural.
Get busy living or get busy dying!
[-] The following 4 users Like P.T.'s post:
  • BarbarianFather, 20Nation, BravoZulu, Kaaal
P.T. are you working on a book of memoirs or something along that lines?
[-] The following 1 user Likes BarbarianFather's post:
  • BravoZulu
P.T. would you be willing to do a thread about expeditions?
Be professional, be polite, but always have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Way to active right now BarbarianFather for a book, but making notes might be a good thought and the idea of memoirs is appealing. Perhaps when 8 decades are reached, but now is the right point in time where the mix of leadership, experience and strength for serious expeditions, Teddy Roosevelt style, are near the peak. Simply writing a thing here and there that strikes a chord and hopefully adds some value to the lives of other men. Interestingly, the legacy thought is popping up more and more. For men interested in the subject of Inner Game, the concept of legacy is both a starting point and an ending point as it is one of the most powerful elements there. For men wanting to know more about where to start with Inner Game and legacy, consider spending more time with your fathers and grandfathers as you are their legacy and they will give you great first-hand insight. They will be gone before you know it and then one of your best opportunities in life with be relegated to memory.

Expeditions are an analog activity in a digital world Bravo Zulu, they are mostly hard work geared toward accomplishing a mission. They are 5% crazy, 90% purposeful activity, and 5% reflection/relaxation. The subject matter of many of the missions include a fair amount of cartography, surveying, cataloging, sampling, engineering functions from civil to mechanical, an occasional scientific experiment, a little archaeology, a pinch of construction, a dash of demolition, some geology as well as having been called for some unusual SAR and other unique projects. We explore, we track, we hunt, we live, and we DO in difficult environments often times with limited access. The terrains vary from Jungle, to mountain, to wooded, to hills to underground to desert to artic. It is mostly on land but there is also moderate hydrological work above and below ground as well as some oceanographic work. Pre-expedition deals with organizations, private individuals, and institutions mostly, but with governments on occasion.

The most important thing is the people and how their backgrounds will merge in a team environment of 15-75 men while accomplishing various goals in fulfillment of a larger mission. The main focuses for the team leader are to know his men as well as what it takes and how to accomplish the overall mission. He must be knowledgeable and experienced in multiple disciplines and understand where he is strong and where he is weak before he can do this with his men. Daily life is a unique hybrid between the law of the jungle and being a civil tribe. The notion of being in touch with the law of the jungle is a worthwhile subject as it seems that modern day man is out of touch with this part of his nature. The expeditions are normally self-sustaining after initial provisioning. It is not some glory seeking photo-op vacation adventure, it is old school. The people who are part of these expeditions are seriously accomplished in their fields and are recommended through word of mouth, their backgrounds are scrutinized beforehand as are their practical abilities during their first expeditions. They seek to better themselves through adversity while accomplishing something that is meaningful on a larger scale. No one is master of all the required skills as you do not fully understand all of the requirements until the expedition is finished, yet this does not stop us from striving to reach such lofty goals because failing to do so can be the difference between life and death. Hindsight is a great thing, but foresight and being able to daily conquer adversity are keys in this environment.

Sleep with one eye opened is one of our mottos.
Get busy living or get busy dying!
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Thanks for the Info P.T. and the super detailed e-mail. I would rep you again if it were possible.
Be professional, be polite, but always have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
PT, wow.
"Simply writing a thing here and there that strikes a chord and hopefully adds some value to the lives of other men."

Good point. I can trust this forum, N20, THC, etc as I know we have good authors here who actually have a great amount of experience, but I would always advice anyone going into PU lessons to watch out for most authors, which are often major absolute weirdos (here's the guy who wrote Tao of Badass, about to become a cult leader ), or frats trying to get some cash online

Nothing beats lessons learned from our own experiences when we action and slowly discover some patterns for successful pulls by ourselves. This is sadly getting way underrated as I see more people taking some books as if it was their bible, and then keep mentally masturbating (=all reading, no action). So I'll always suggest to find instead a local lair, and a free mentor with good Samaritan spirit
Mixture of both. You got mystery and style; then u got ss and major mark. I've trained with Mark and wow he is the most powerful hypnotist I have seen and a great guy and mentor.

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